Dr. Ben Nwoye, a renowned American trained lawyer and former Enugu State of the All Progressive Congress (APC), in this conversation with Chidipeters Okorie, discusses why he enjoys engaging in hours of public questions and answers sessions about the Presidential candidacy of Ahmed Bola Tinubu and Senator Kashim Shettima; as the campaign progresses, he looks forward to more engagement with the rural voters and the press as well.
The interview is edited for clarity. Excepts:
The South-East of Nigeria has continued to complain of marginalization and not having equaled participation in National polity ln 1999-2007, you had someone from the West; 2007-2010 you had someone from the North; 2010-2015 you had someone from the South-South. Now 2015-2023 you have President Buhari from the North. Don’t you think is justifiable to give the South-East a chance at least balance the table of Nigerian politics. Again, don’t you think it’s time the issue of rotational Presidency, National Assembly down to the Councillorship is legislated upon and enshrined in the Nigeria constitution?
I think in terms of enshrining it, it will of course affect people’s right, it would affect the fundamental human rights of all others. For example this current year 2023, we’re here now on election year, last year when they were doing Primaries, ordinarily it’s understandable that power rotates by most of the parties in their Constitution between North and South, not on geographical regions.
But in the states it rotates within the senatorial districts?
It’s a different thing. If you say in
the states, you can be referring to Enugu State. But if you say in the states, in some states power does not rotate that way. Rivers State for example power has remained stagnant in one area. In Imo State it hasn’t rotated. The same thing even in Kano and many other states, but the point is it’s different at the national level. Even when you say power rotates; even when we accept that
let us agree the so called gentleman agreement that power rotates, it doesn’t stop anybody from running. I’m among one of those when they were abusing the former Deputy Senate President, Senator Ike Ekweremadu, for daring to run, he has a right to run. Whether he will win is a different thing. You don’t bar somebody from contesting on the basis of their geographical origin. If you do that you would be offending not only the Constitution but you would be offending the basic fundamental human rights as widely recognized by the international conventions. A place of birth is accidental and as such you can’t legislate anyone out of contest. But what we do is we appeal to people’s conscience.
Just like the PDP were unable to appeal to Atiku’s conscience that it is the turn of the South to produce a candidate. The same South-East people who at the time the big leadership of the South-East was within the South-East, people of their own extraction ran under PDP and they were busy rooting for somebody from the North. Majority of those who contested from the South-East extraction did not score even one vote including former Senate President who was also a former SGF. He got zero votes under PDP. You bring that also to APC, the same thing repeated itself. Our former Senate President got zero votes. I supported him but I was not a delegate.
I’m among those who said for fairness to reign the same argument you just laid out. But politics is not a fair game. Politics does not talk about fairness. There is no equity in political distribution of either power or resources. There’s no Constitutional Provisions that gives you equity or fairness. And not even a Court can give you fairness. If Court would give you fairness in politics you wouldn’t have six or seven Judges sitting down not just counseling election but making someone who won become the looser or making somebody the winner. They would have just said “go back to the people and let the people decide”. Under no circumstance is the process of politics a fair process. If it is a fair process you start with fair resources. Let’s start with that. You need material resources to pursue it. When you say go for delegate votes those who have more resources are likely to have better campaign, better reach. If it is where money politics plays a role in; if it is where dollars and naira are doled out, those with more naira and dollars will win. So, it’s not a fair play. It is a play of so many factors being brought to bear. And that is why in my party I’m still grateful to the northern Governors forum. They sat down and then pulled their minds together and decided against the temptation of those who had announced that, forcefully though, that Mr. President was supporting a sole candidate, the sitting Senate President a northerner. The northern Governors said, No. they got back together and they said they are supporting a President from southern extraction. That’s their conscience but that’s not political judgment. In political judgment those who want to lead do what they have to do. That’s why you have rigging, touts, violence, that’s why whether it’s the military or civilians people do whatever is humanly possible and available to them to win.
Your party, (APC), is fielding in a Muslim Muslim ticket in a complex Nigeria. Pundits see it as political suicide and a slight on Christian compatriots. What’s your take on that? Looking at it from the Nigerian religious setting?
I’m a Christian and I think that even
the Christians making those noises are not honest Christians. If they are honest, they will know that politics has nothing to do with religion. We pursue heaven as Christians. I go to Church because I want to make heaven, not because I want to become the President of Nigeria based on my religion. Or the Governor of Enugu State based on my religion. Or the VP whenever my friend or someone affiliated to me becomes Presidential candidate who is a Muslim. That’s a dishonest position by the Christian political elites who are pursuing that. Go and check it, those pursuing that are those who thought they would have deputized (from the north) the Jagaban. And when they were not picked for whatever reason, they now want to play the religious trump card. We’re not fools; Nigerian people have gone beyond that. I personally issued statement on that. I like the fact that you brought in religion to be fair. You can’t ignore people who are of African traditional religion. It’s not correct.
My brother is an African religious practitioner. Incidentally, when he goes to practice African religion at his shrine, he invites the journalists to follow him to the shrine. The last I witnessed none of the journalists accompanied him into the shrine house. They all backed away when they came to the doorstep. He showed up and said ‘how come you go to Church and some of you are not Christians’. And now he invited you to come and cover his worship inside his shrine and they went back. There are many others including Jewish people. Those who are talking about religion are those who have nothing to offer politically. We have other candidates that are Muslim-Christian. Leave our candidates alone. We in the APC who are Christians are not looking for religious leader.
My religious leader as a Catholic is the Pope. In Enugu here from the Dioceses is the Bishop. If I need any religious counseling I go to Bishop Onaga. Then I have my Parish Priest that I look up to. But when it comes to political equation they have no place there. The Pope has no place in telling me what I need to do politically neither does Bishop Onaga has a place there or my Parish Priest Revd. Fr. David Okoye has nothing to do there.
When people are losing, (because clearly His Excellency Ashiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu the Jagaban, is going to win) they will play the religious trump card. But that card has long expired. Both Christians and Muslims, non-Christians and other religions backing him, know that this man is the person with the best credentials; knowing that his vice is the person with the best credentials to deputize him. When you put all the packages together the trump card that they have collapse. If you listened very carefully nobody is talking about
Muslim-Muslim ticket anymore.
And by the way, this is not the first time people were elected. In the days of MKO Abiola, they ran the so called Muslim-Muslim ticket and I cannot find it difficult to alter that word because it is not part of our political heritage. It is those who are weak and when their political position is weakened and they have nothing within the rims of what they should offer on the table this is what they do. Instead of saying I’m lacking in content they look at the other person and all they could pick on is they are both Muslim-Muslim. That is looking for what will divide us as supposed to what has been enacted. What we need in this country is unity. I know Senator Kashim Shettima very well; I know him personally. He is a good man. He has a good record of leadership. He will make this country proud as a Vice President.
Coming back to Kashim Shettima. In 2014 when President Goodluck Jonathan visited Borno State, he told Kashim Shettima who was the then Governor of Borno State that he was ready to pull out the military in 24 hours if he would assure that Boko Haram will not attack and kill the people again. Kashim Shettima, reportedly, never altered any word because he was accused of been the financier of Boko Haram in the North-East. Don’t you think that if Shettima becomes member of the top echelon of government in Nigeria, terrorism will continue?
It’s only wickedness that leads people to accuse His Excellency Senator Kashim Shettima terrorism financing. It is also only wickedness that will allow people to now say that Senator Kashim Shettima has become the Commander-in-Chief of Nigeria Armed Forces where Commander-in-Chief shows up in Borno with all the intails available to him, he is now looking up to a Governor who does not command even a scout unit to give him an assurance that nobody will die. Assuming that statement is correct, he would want Senator Kashim Shettima to play God? How can any man assure another human that nobody will die? Kashim Shettima is a very pure hearted man and a religious man.
Within the same period, there was intercepted recorded telephone voice conversation between Shettima and the former Oyo State Governor, late Ajimobi, where Shettima discussed the grand plans, threats by himself and Northern elites to shut-out the Igbos against economics prosperity in Borno and Nigeria. Don’t you think he is sectional and tribalistic?
I’ve listened to it over and over again and I doubt that audio tape is Senator Kashim Shettima’s voice. Secondly, without admitting that that is his voice, I will assure you that the contest that led to that conversation was not discussed in that conversation. And as such it couldn’t be a tribalistic question. If you go to Borno State even far into the remote areas Igbos are doing well. Igbos are still the ones running the markets; Igbos are running the Pharmacies, running the mechanic shops, running the building materials. And that hasn’t changed, even the hotels they’re still the ones running it; even the places you think that people are
not going and you manage to go to some of these very remote areas you will still find very successful Igbo people there. They have a very strong Ohanaze Ndi Igbo unit in Borno State and also big Churches. When Boko Haram bombed some Churches Shettima rebuilt them. When they hit the market he doesn’t ask are you Igbo or are you Christian? He offers help to everyone.
This is campaign period. Like I said, those who have run out of ideas, what they do is look for attack. They go very low to pick the mud and look for whom to rub the mud.
We’re almost close to the 2023 General Elections in Nigeria. As the former chairman of the ruling party, APC, in Enugu State, what are views, perspectives and predictions about the forthcoming elections specifically the presidential election on Nigeria?
I think there’s going to be lots of surprises. And the surprise would begin with the turnout. There is this whole idea that a lot more people have registered. Yes. But, surprise has started. A whole lot more of those who registered to vote are not even collecting their PVCs. Many saw this as a process, ‘let me go and get the card.’ The process of election is a deliberate process. People who
participate think about it. You just mentioned about 25 days to the election because you are interested and counting down. Majority of the human being within any society are not thinking about the election; they don’t count down and they don’t think about how it affects their lives. With all the sounds and noise they don’t think about it. Majority of the people do not believe that who leads them counts. They don’t believe that if one person or the other becomes the President their lives would change. That is why you see, from the onset, the surprise has started. We have maybe a week for the distribution to stop. INEC is doing fantastic job in taking the PVCs to different neighbourhoods and people are not picking them. I have as an interested participant gone to several collection centres and it appears that there more of uncollected PVCs than the ones that are collected.
But fast forward on Election Day, I’m predicting a low turnout. You would be shocked that it would be lower than expectation. That is why people running for an election have to do more on Voters Mobilization. And this mobilization is “Get out and Vote campaign”. You can’t only be saying “I will do this and that”, people listening to you in rallies many of them will not come out on Election Day. So, at some point there has to be “Go out and vote campaign”. For now there is the need for “go out and pick your PVC campaign”. At least in Enugu State where I can speak about, when I look at what is happening in the media and other parts of the country it’s the same thing. People are not picking their PVCs. That will mean that fewer people will actually have their PVCs with them on Election Day. And of
those who have their PVC, fewer of them will come out to vote. I am inside my Amuri Ward; when you come here, we’re kind of celebrating the advance winning of Ashiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu as the President come 2023.
In Enugu State do you think he’s going to win in Enugu State? Do you think he’s going to have the 25% when someone from the South-East is also contesting?
Interestingly, I am not among those who are working for 25%. I am working for a victory for Ashiwaju. So, I have moved and I continue to move from one Ward to the other explaining to them why Bola Ahmed Tinubu should be their choice candidate. A vote for Bola Ahmed Tinubu is a vote for me because I know what he can do to turn this country around.
He’s running on his own record when he was once a Chief Executive. Let’s look at what he did in Lagos State, he’s running on that record. So, I believe he will do more for us and he has the capacity. It’s not an emotional thing when you say someone running from South-East. I like Peter Obi and what he has come to represent. It’s good for our polity. But, you know, Nigeria has gone beyond the point when we elect a leader by emotion or when we vote by emotion or when there is a sudden emergence of a leader.
Nobody doubts the capacity of Peter Obi; nobody doubts his contributions in terms of expanding the scope, bringing people who will otherwise not care about who lead them into the system. Meaning they are now interested. But we have to go beyond South-East, go beyond North-Central and go beyond some portions of South-South. It’s not a regional government that we’re looking for. It’s a national government and we have to also go beyond the idea of entertainment kind of politics where it becomes a show. We have to go beyond talking to one segment of the population. When we say Nigerian youths, we have to also talk to Nigerian Senior Citizens en mass, not one or two persons, we have to also talk to the Nigerian market women, traders, the bus drivers, the Keke riders. We have to talk to them and it shouldn’t stop in South-East, some portion of South-South and some portion of North-Central. It should be wider. I’m not worried about that.
If anything in South-East, Obi’s presence helped APC. What Peter Obi has done is helpful when you reduce it to South-East. You may want to know how? Obi was the Vice Presidential Candidate to Atiku Abubakar and Obi was recruited to pull the Igbo PDP votes by Atiku. Now the Obi is gone and will go votes in the South-East. Those that are remaining, because some will still remain with the PDP, will be a divided house. We the APC will cash in because nothing has been divided in
APC instead we have increased. Before now in 2018, South-East APC had just one Governor by 2019 election, Owelle Rochas Okorocha, who at that time Imo State was embroiled with a lot of issues in APC. So, we were divided then into three
or four factions in Imo State. Some went to APGA, some to AA, some went to PDP and some other parties. So, we couldn’t do well. Today APC is stronger and intact. You have now Governor Hope Uzodinma who is the Coordinator of South-East Presidential Campaign, which is on the southern part of South-East. When you come a little bit up we have the Governor of Ebonyi State, Governor Engr. Dave Umahi. These are things we didn’t have before. We have more people
elected. You also have the Chief Whip, our very own His Excellency Senator Orji Uzor Kalu, you have Nkiru Onyejiocha still on that axis. So, you have these people who are pulling resources. They’ve not separated instead they’ve grown in number. So, my expectation is that PDP will suffer collateral defeat by their President in the South-East while APC will gain a whole lot more votes than we have done in the past.
You launched what you described as Go-Collect-Ur-PVC and Go-Vote Campaign in different local government of Enugu State. Is that your personal project or party project? Looking at it that the party in the state is in disarray
The reality of the matter is that I have a personal relationship with both candidates. His Excellency Senator Bola Ahmed Tinubu was the leader of my initial party that gave me a landing spot into Nigerian politics – that is AC then, to ACN. He is the founding father and the leader and remains the leader of the All Progressive congress (APC). His Excellency Senator Kashim Shettima is also a friend, I know him too well. I know his capacity and I have a duty to tell my people that despite the issues that APC has, those people who came into APC and destroyed APC Enugu State are not running for election. I don’t want to call names, but anyone that cares can go on and name them, because nobody run for an election and say that he don’t want to deal with leaders and stakeholders. Anyone who’s interested in running for an election and he joins the party must look for stakeholders’ leaders and foundation members. Nobody comes into a party, hijack it and use it to run. So I’m not concerned with that. Since they say they can do it themselves. My concern is the February 25 presidential election. That is why I have devoted my time and abandoned my business, I have been going from one locality to another touching all the 17 local governments in the state and telling people the truth about Bola Ahmed Tinubu. He can’t go to those places; it is my duty and responsibility to tell my people the truth. So we can plug into the national power grid; so that what happened to Enugu State in 2015 will not happen again; so that we can contest fairly and get as much votes as possible. I am not part of the people clamouring for 25%. We can win the State. I am among part of those who will say we can win this. I registered under my regime over 163,000 APC memberships. If we can get that same number to vote Bola Tinubu will win. APC members are convinced already, we’re talking about convincing new members. Remember every registered member is an adult; majority of them have families. In my own household I’ve convinced my household and they’re voting for Ahmed Tinubu (APC) for President. People come from all nooks and crannies, they have families, you have youths and women leaders and fathers, telling them that this thing is not the nzogbu nzogbu politics. It’s about their lives and what would affect them. Let’s not criticize anybody; let’s not join issues with those who said they have hijacked APC Enugu State. That is not the concern of Bola Ahmed Tinubu. The present chairman of APC Enugu
State is not running for an election. He is just the chairman and party
administrator. The most they can do is to organize a rally for few hours. The
topmost a normal rally last is three hours and people will go. But we must sustain the information; not just social media. That is why we go to social events, marriage ceremonies, burials, town Unions, market square and we take the message to them that Bola Ahmed Tinubu is the person we have to vote for. He’s the next President and we cannot find ourselves playing foolish opposition.
You don’t throw away you vote based on your ethnic association-ship or your religious affiliation. Politics should be devoid of emotion. We have to be reasonable. Who is most likely to win? And if this person wins, is he likely to do better for this country? The answer is yes! I will not stop or leave this town until I touch every single nooks and crannies to ensure that the name of Bola Ahmed Tinubu and his vice Senator Kashim Shettima sinks down to the people.
Don’t you think that the age of Bola Ahmed Tinubu is on the high side for the Presidency position to rule Nigeria, looking at the heavy challenges facing the country in recent times?
Bola Ahmed Tinubu is just 70 years old, meaning wisdom; with age comes with wisdom and with age comes content of character and experience. President Biden is at least five or more years older than Tinubu. The pressure he has in his own space is like he’s the world leader and so we have history of older people holding the highest office and they did well. And so there is nothing about record that suggests that His Excellency Bola Ahmed Tinubu age will impact his ability to lead. And remember also, people talk about it as if this is the first time someone of that age has risen up. Let us also look at President Regan of the USA who is marked as one of the best President the United States ever had. He ended the cold war. That one thing that he did and America saw prosperity under his leadership. Even though sometimes people query or question his mental capacity, that’s a judgment issue.
There’s no record medical or otherwise to suggest that Bola Ahmed Tinubu is unfit. He is more than fit. He is stronger than you and I that is much younger. If you think about the type of schedule he’s keeping now; if you think about his meeting engagements (both sitting and standing) you find out that the man is time-tested. Again, these issues of age come up from those who have nothing within their so called experience to offer. And by the way when it comes to health or longevity or who will die first we don’t know. It is God. And someone who is over 60 years of age is not youthful. If you like wear Senator all the time; if you like show a very tight bodily-fitted cloth and jog, when you hit even 40 you can’t call yourself youth.
Look at this young man that just won the World Cup, Lionel Messi is 38 years and the whole world see him as an old man playing soccer because that’s the truth. But with that age also came the skills and experience. And that’s what he used in winning as against the youthful ones who by virtue of their youth and energy supposed to win. He used his skill and content of his experience he has acquired over the years to win the world cup at the age of 38; becoming one of the oldest players to win the world cup.
And so if age were the issue I would say those probing age even the Labour Party candidate is not youthful, he’s an old man. The PDP candidate is equally not youthful, he’s an old man so also the NNPP candidate, Kwankwaso he’s an elderly man. But we need elders to help us out
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